Discussion:
The California Fires
(too old to reply)
Larry Caldwell
2003-10-29 12:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.

What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.

Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Jonathan Ball
2003-10-29 16:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.
What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.
They are natural, in the sense that they will happen
without human intervention. They also are beneficial
to the chaparral ecology, and to some forest ecologies.

What is unnatural is for humans to build houses in the
middle of fuel storage sites, and to suppress the fires.

The fires in Yellowstone 13 or so years ago were one of
the best cleansings the place has had since it became a
national park.
Post by Larry Caldwell
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
Jan Il
2003-11-01 06:42:42 UTC
Permalink
"[snip]

They are natural, in the sense that they will hap without human
intervention. They also are beneficial
Post by Jonathan Ball
to the chaparral ecology, and to some forest ecologies.
What is unnatural is for humans to build houses in the
middle of fuel storage sites, and to suppress the fires.
The fires in Yellowstone 13 or so years ago were one of
the best cleansings the place has had since it became a
national park.
Post by Larry Caldwell
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
YOU obviously don't live in the real world. What a total, thoughtless,
pompous, shallow, selfish jerk you are! You sit smuggly in your little safe
haven, and then want to be an armchair critic and expert on the subject.

It would appear that for all your jawjackin, you, and some others, don't
read, don't pay attention to the news coverage, and don't want to look past
the end of your own huge Roman noses to find out the real facts!

These fires were set, Dude! Yeah...Momma Nature had nothing to do with it
stupid! Neither did the people living in all the houses that were burned
down, neither did the people who lost their lives in it. The most vicious
and deadly was *NOT* a matter of Nature. It was a *human being* that started
all this massive distruction and loss of life. You obviously have NO concept
of what the Hell yo're talking about. I and my family have been living in
the middle of the fires, with them knocking at our back door, not once but
twice, as well as others who have lost everything. HOW DARE YOU sit and
spew your selfish BS. Before you open your mouth, you really should know
the REAL facts...Sir!!

Let me see you look those who lost everything, even some who lost their
lives in all this Satan's madness in the eye and spout such garbage.

I'd like to see you look the firefighters, both local and from outside in
the eye, including the widow of the fireman who gave his life to help people
here he didn't even know, and spout your high and mighty rationale of what
this is REALLY all about.

And.....after going through a living Hell to keep our families safe and well
through the past week, .....I dare you to look me and my neighbors in the
eye and spout your s**t!

What a festered boil on the wart on the hair on a gnats ass................

Jan.......from Santee, CA ....home of the Three Ring Circus, not once..but
twice!! Compliments of the Mother of All Fires...produced by The Lost
Signal Firestarter, and directed by Gov. Gray Davis, and the CDF renowned
staff of Cloned Clowns.


P.S....I just hope someone realizes just how **very** hard I tried to keep
my reply as polite as it was.......
Donald L Ferrt
2003-11-01 11:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
"[snip]
They are natural, in the sense that they will hap without human
intervention. They also are beneficial
Post by Jonathan Ball
to the chaparral ecology, and to some forest ecologies.
What is unnatural is for humans to build houses in the
middle of fuel storage sites, and to suppress the fires.
The fires in Yellowstone 13 or so years ago were one of
the best cleansings the place has had since it became a
national park.
Post by Larry Caldwell
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
YOU obviously don't live in the real world. What a total, thoughtless,
pompous, shallow, selfish jerk you are! You sit smuggly in your little safe
haven, and then want to be an armchair critic and expert on the subject.
It would appear that for all your jawjackin, you, and some others, don't
read, don't pay attention to the news coverage, and don't want to look past
the end of your own huge Roman noses to find out the real facts!
Quite true = I choose not to live in the wilderness urban interface =
where I would cause a lot more problems and money than otherwise!
Jonathan Ball
2003-11-01 15:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
"[snip]
They are natural, in the sense that they will hap without human
intervention. They also are beneficial
Post by Jonathan Ball
to the chaparral ecology, and to some forest ecologies.
What is unnatural is for humans to build houses in the
middle of fuel storage sites, and to suppress the fires.
The fires in Yellowstone 13 or so years ago were one of
the best cleansings the place has had since it became a
national park.
Post by Larry Caldwell
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
YOU obviously don't live in the real world. What a total, thoughtless,
pompous, shallow, selfish jerk you are! You sit smuggly in your little safe
haven, and then want to be an armchair critic and expert on the subject.
It would appear that for all your jawjackin, you, and some others, don't
read, don't pay attention to the news coverage, and don't want to look past
the end of your own huge Roman noses to find out the real facts!
These fires were set, Dude!
A couple of them; not all, not most.
Don Bruder
2003-11-01 23:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
P.S....I just hope someone realizes just how **very** hard I tried to keep
my reply as polite as it was.......
However polite it may have been, the guy you're dressing down is
*RIGHT*. Whether it's some froot-loop with a van fulla molotov
cocktails, a broken bottle left by some inner-city moron who whould
never have been there in the first place acting as a lens, or a
lightning strike, *THE FUEL LOAD DOWN THERE WAS ASTRONOMICAL* and it
reached that state due to mismanagement of a calibre that no words can
adequately describe. The Yuppies and wannabes and eco-trash living in
their trendy little developments in the middle of the woods were sitting
on top of what amounted to a gasoline-soaked kindling pile that, sooner
or later, was going to go "Whoosh!" in much the same manner as it has,
and until and unless the fuel was removed, that threat would have
persisted until doomsday.
--
Don Bruder - ***@sonic.net <--- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See <http://www.spamassassin.org> for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
Fly trap info pages: <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html>
Jan Il
2003-11-02 03:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Bruder
Post by Jan Il
P.S....I just hope someone realizes just how **very** hard I tried to keep
my reply as polite as it was.......
However polite it may have been, the guy you're dressing down is
*RIGHT*. Whether it's some froot-loop with a van fulla molotov
cocktails, a broken bottle left by some inner-city moron who whould
never have been there in the first place acting as a lens, or a
lightning strike, *THE FUEL LOAD DOWN THERE WAS ASTRONOMICAL* and it
reached that state due to mismanagement of a calibre that no words can
adequately describe. The Yuppies and wannabes and eco-trash living in
their trendy little developments in the middle of the woods were sitting
on top of what amounted to a gasoline-soaked kindling pile that, sooner
or later, was going to go "Whoosh!" in much the same manner as it has,
and until and unless the fuel was removed, that threat would have
persisted until doomsday.
And.... I take it you will one of the first to move your family into a cave
in the mountains where there is nothing that can grow or catch on fire
inside your own little world. Might was well...that's where your mind is,
in a cave of selfishness and self-absorbancy.

Left up to you and those like you, we would just do away with the rest of
the world human species...and just you and yours would be left to reign over
the environs of the world. And, we can all be assured that YOU would know
how best to take care of all the worlds numerous environs.

I suppose that you are an advocate of the kind of *controlled burn* that
took place in New Mexico that took numerous lives and caused millions of
dollars of damage, just to make sure that the overgrowth in certain areas is
kept under control.

Now..you talk as if you are an expert...so, for the real test of your
expertise......just WHERE do YOU suggest people live? When the city's inner
communities become too crowded, or so uninhabitable by civilized human
beings, just where do YOU suggest they go to live??? Hey, come on....you
are dogging the unbanites, and blaming them for all the worlds fire
ills...so...just what is YOUR learned opinion of where all these people
should go to live? Besides, to Hell... ???

And, no, he is NOT right.......nor are you, as this world belongs to all of
those who live here...not just you select few who want to sit in judgement
of others...even if you don't like it.

Why, instead of pounding away on your keyboards here bitching about, and
everybody, outside your little realm of idealism, are you not grouping your
oh so expert knowldege and confronting and hitting up the 'powers that be'
to make positive changes in the way things are done. Because, it is so much
easier to just do what you areall doing, just hashing it out amongst your
own little clique here, casting judgement on the rest of the world, and each
other, if it.they don't not agree with your individual idealism.....

But then, why should any of you bother to try, when it is so much easier for
you all to sit behind your computers and pick on the easy prey, as YOU see
it. Talk about wannabes, you're all worse then those you accuse of being the
cause, because, you're all armchair critics, and although you all might be
able to make a difference, you don't even try to go there. Those who don't
even try are more pathetic than those who try and make mistakes or fail.

So, unless you have really tired to make a difference, you and your cronies
here are just talking to hear the sound of your own voices amongst the rest
of your peers.
Post by Don Bruder
Hate SPAM? See <http://www.spamassassin.org> for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
<http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html>
JMartin
2003-11-02 04:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
And.... I take it you will one of the first to move your family into a cave
in the mountains where there is nothing that can grow or catch on fire
inside your own little world. Might was well...that's where your mind is,
in a cave of selfishness and self-absorbancy.
A lot of the country doesn't burn. Most places do not have "fire season".
I think it's pretty self-absorbed to think that the issues affecting
you...and your chosen place of residence...effect everyone. They don't.
Post by Jan Il
Left up to you and those like you, we would just do away with the rest of
the world human species...and just you and yours would be left to reign over
the environs of the world. And, we can all be assured that YOU would know
how best to take care of all the worlds numerous environs.
At least they might acknowledge that different environs exist outside of
caves.
Post by Jan Il
I suppose that you are an advocate of the kind of *controlled burn* that
took place in New Mexico that took numerous lives and caused millions of
dollars of damage, just to make sure that the overgrowth in certain areas is
kept under control.
Now..you talk as if you are an expert...so, for the real test of your
expertise......just WHERE do YOU suggest people live? When the city's inner
communities become too crowded, or so uninhabitable by civilized human
beings, just where do YOU suggest they go to live???
Hey, come on....you
Post by Jan Il
are dogging the unbanites, and blaming them for all the worlds fire
ills...so...just what is YOUR learned opinion of where all these people
should go to live? Besides, to Hell... ???
Wherever you choose to live, accept the risks that come with that. You can
blame anyone and everyone for your recent scare, but YOU chose to live in a
high fire risk area. When you do that...you have a high risk of losing your
place to a fire. Accept it or move....to a flood zone perhaps?
Post by Jan Il
And, no, he is NOT right.......nor are you, as this world belongs to all of
those who live here...not just you select few who want to sit in judgement
of others...even if you don't like it.
I don't think you liked the whole fire deal, but you that is no one's fault
but your own. YOU chose to live there.
Post by Jan Il
Why, instead of pounding away on your keyboards here bitching about, and
everybody, outside your little realm of idealism, are you not grouping your
oh so expert knowldege and confronting and hitting up the 'powers that be'
to make positive changes in the way things are done. Because, it is so much
easier to just do what you areall doing, just hashing it out amongst your
own little clique here, casting judgement on the rest of the world, and each
other, if it.they don't not agree with your individual idealism.....
Now this is getting funny. We are hashing it out in our clique when you
first reponded to one of the biggest trolls on this newsgroup?
Post by Jan Il
But then, why should any of you bother to try, when it is so much easier for
you all to sit behind your computers and pick on the easy prey, as YOU see
it. Talk about wannabes, you're all worse then those you accuse of being the
cause, because, you're all armchair critics, and although you all might be
able to make a difference, you don't even try to go there. Those who don't
even try are more pathetic than those who try and make mistakes or fail.
Try and do what? Live in a high fire area without getting burned? Whether
or not living in a high fire area is a mistake or not is a personal
decision. You can't just call it a mistake when your house goes up in
flames and a success if it doesn't. YOU chose the risk.

Jena
Post by Jan Il
So, unless you have really tired to make a difference, you and your cronies
here are just talking to hear the sound of your own voices amongst the rest
of your peers.
Post by Don Bruder
Hate SPAM? See <http://www.spamassassin.org> for some seriously great
info.
Post by Don Bruder
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
<http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html>
Jan Il
2003-11-02 05:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
Post by Jan Il
And.... I take it you will one of the first to move your family into a
cave
Post by Jan Il
in the mountains where there is nothing that can grow or catch on fire
inside your own little world. Might was well...that's where your mind is,
in a cave of selfishness and self-absorbancy.
A lot of the country doesn't burn. Most places do not have "fire season".
I think it's pretty self-absorbed to think that the issues affecting
you...and your chosen place of residence...effect everyone. They don't.
Post by Jan Il
Left up to you and those like you, we would just do away with the rest of
the world human species...and just you and yours would be left to reign
over
Post by Jan Il
the environs of the world. And, we can all be assured that YOU would know
how best to take care of all the worlds numerous environs.
At least they might acknowledge that different environs exist outside of
caves.
Post by Jan Il
I suppose that you are an advocate of the kind of *controlled burn* that
took place in New Mexico that took numerous lives and caused millions of
dollars of damage, just to make sure that the overgrowth in certain
areas
Post by JMartin
is
Post by Jan Il
kept under control.
Now..you talk as if you are an expert...so, for the real test of your
expertise......just WHERE do YOU suggest people live? When the city's
inner
Post by Jan Il
communities become too crowded, or so uninhabitable by civilized human
beings, just where do YOU suggest they go to live???
Hey, come on....you
Post by Jan Il
are dogging the unbanites, and blaming them for all the worlds fire
ills...so...just what is YOUR learned opinion of where all these people
should go to live? Besides, to Hell... ???
Wherever you choose to live, accept the risks that come with that. You can
blame anyone and everyone for your recent scare, but YOU chose to live in a
high fire risk area. When you do that...you have a high risk of losing your
place to a fire. Accept it or move....to a flood zone perhaps?
And, fires can not take place in the inner cities? In the inner suburbs?
Where is there a place that fires can *not* take place, natural or
otherwise...according to your learned knowledge? Flood plains? Ha! You
say that because of where I chose to live that caused the problem. That
truly is *sweet*! See...where I live is not out in the boonies, it is in an
incorporated city, which happens to be in the inland valley area of San
Diego. But, there are hills all around us, which ultimately came into the
fires path. So, in keeping with what you are saying about my choice of
where I live is the reason I and my family suffered, then, let's say, that
in the perfect area where you choose to live, if some jerk happend to set
the house next door to you on fire, and it spread to yours and destroyed
it..then...well..by your logical estimation...tough luck Toots, you chose to
live in the wrong house, on the wrong block, in the wrong neighborhood..at
the wrong time, etc.

I hope you never know it...but, if you ever do...just remember, it's because
*you* chose to live there...'k.??? And, in keeping with your expert
opinion on the subject, you have rally will have no one to blame, not even
the jerk who started the fire that destroyed your life, because...well
hey...after all, *you* chose to live there..right..???

What I resent most, is the complacent attitude of people who have never had
to go through anything like this, whether or not it was caused by Nature, or
by human hand, to sit in judgement of those who were just trying to live as
best they can, on what they have to live on, to provide for their families.
And you folks make so light of their loss of everything, and the loss of
life too, and then actually have the audacity and crude insensitivity to
say..."Hey..you got what you deserved, you asked for it".

Sheesh...you all really do deserve each other.......
Post by JMartin
And, no, he is NOT right.......nor are you, as this world belongs to all of
Post by Jan Il
those who live here...not just you select few who want to sit in judgement
of others...even if you don't like it.
I don't think you liked the whole fire deal, but you that is no one's fault
but your own. YOU chose to live there.
Post by Jan Il
Why, instead of pounding away on your keyboards here bitching about, and
everybody, outside your little realm of idealism, are you not grouping
your
Post by Jan Il
oh so expert knowldege and confronting and hitting up the 'powers that be'
to make positive changes in the way things are done. Because, it is so
much
Post by Jan Il
easier to just do what you areall doing, just hashing it out amongst your
own little clique here, casting judgement on the rest of the world, and
each
Post by Jan Il
other, if it.they don't not agree with your individual idealism.....
Now this is getting funny. We are hashing it out in our clique when you
first reponded to one of the biggest trolls on this newsgroup?
Post by Jan Il
But then, why should any of you bother to try, when it is so much easier
for
Post by Jan Il
you all to sit behind your computers and pick on the easy prey, as YOU see
it. Talk about wannabes, you're all worse then those you accuse of being
the
Post by Jan Il
cause, because, you're all armchair critics, and although you all might be
able to make a difference, you don't even try to go there. Those who don't
even try are more pathetic than those who try and make mistakes or fail.
Try and do what? Live in a high fire area without getting burned?
Whether
Post by JMartin
or not living in a high fire area is a mistake or not is a personal
decision. You can't just call it a mistake when your house goes up in
flames and a success if it doesn't. YOU chose the risk.
Jena
Post by Jan Il
So, unless you have really tired to make a difference, you and your
cronies
Post by Jan Il
here are just talking to hear the sound of your own voices amongst the
rest
Post by Jan Il
of your peers.
SpamAssassinated.
Post by JMartin
Post by Jan Il
Post by Don Bruder
Hate SPAM? See <http://www.spamassassin.org> for some seriously great
info.
Post by Don Bruder
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
<http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html>
Larry Caldwell
2003-11-02 15:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
Wherever you choose to live, accept the risks that come with that. You can
blame anyone and everyone for your recent scare, but YOU chose to live in a
high fire risk area. When you do that...you have a high risk of losing your
place to a fire. Accept it or move....to a flood zone perhaps?
The high fire risk is caused by public policy, not by the people living
there. It would be a simple matter to mandate noncombustible setbacks
around houses, fire resistive construction, and to construct fire breaks
at defensible points. Private timber land here in the west rarely burns,
because the land owners take minimal fire protection measures. Public
land suffers from absentee landlords (the general public) who don't care
about the land and won't suffer the consequences if it burns.

In California, the general public no longer has the option of ignoring
what happens on public land. When the Santa Anna blows, there is no way
to stop a wildfire from moving right through LA or San Diego. That is a
big enough voter bloc that it has goosed the Senate into passing a
version of the Healthy Forest Initiative. Until SoCal burned, the Senate
was just going to sit on it until recess, because most Americans really
don't give a shit what happens on public lands. Like you, they blame
people for living in California, rather than accepting the responsibility
for their lack of responsibility.

Thanks to public policy, there is not a single sawmill still operating in
Southern California, so there is no way to defray expenses on removing
all those dead and dying pine trees. That's thanks to a bunch of
easterners and their "save the forests" mentality too. Well, you just
got a good look at what "save the forests" leads to.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Jonathan Ball
2003-11-02 17:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by JMartin
Wherever you choose to live, accept the risks that come with that. You can
blame anyone and everyone for your recent scare, but YOU chose to live in a
high fire risk area. When you do that...you have a high risk of losing your
place to a fire. Accept it or move....to a flood zone perhaps?
The high fire risk is caused by public policy, not by the people living
there.
People live there *because* of public policy. If
people didn't live in the hills, there would be much
less fire risk. The risk is to property.
Post by Larry Caldwell
It would be a simple matter to mandate noncombustible setbacks
around houses,
If no houses were built into the hills, you wouldn't
need to mandate anything.
Post by Larry Caldwell
fire resistive construction, and to construct fire breaks
at defensible points. Private timber land here in the west rarely burns,
because the land owners take minimal fire protection measures. Public
land suffers from absentee landlords (the general public) who don't care
about the land and won't suffer the consequences if it burns.
In California, the general public no longer has the option of ignoring
what happens on public land. When the Santa Anna blows, there is no way
to stop a wildfire from moving right through LA or San Diego. That is a
big enough voter bloc that it has goosed the Senate into passing a
version of the Healthy Forest Initiative. Until SoCal burned, the Senate
was just going to sit on it until recess, because most Americans really
don't give a shit what happens on public lands. Like you, they blame
people for living in California, rather than accepting the responsibility
for their lack of responsibility.
Thanks to public policy, there is not a single sawmill still operating in
Southern California,
Why would there be? There is no logging going on in
Southern California. No logging occurs in the four
Southern Californian national forests.
Post by Larry Caldwell
so there is no way to defray expenses on removing
all those dead and dying pine trees. That's thanks to a bunch of
easterners and their "save the forests" mentality too. Well, you just
got a good look at what "save the forests" leads to.
Ann
2003-11-02 17:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by JMartin
Wherever you choose to live, accept the risks that come with that. You
can blame anyone and everyone for your recent scare, but YOU chose to
live in a high fire risk area. When you do that...you have a high risk
of losing your place to a fire. Accept it or move....to a flood zone
perhaps?
The high fire risk is caused by public policy, not by the people living
there. It would be a simple matter to mandate noncombustible setbacks
around houses, fire resistive construction, and to construct fire breaks
at defensible points. Private timber land here in the west rarely
burns, because the land owners take minimal fire protection measures.
Public land suffers from absentee landlords (the general public) who
don't care about the land and won't suffer the consequences if it burns.
In California, the general public no longer has the option of ignoring
what happens on public land. When the Santa Anna blows, there is no way
to stop a wildfire from moving right through LA or San Diego. That is a
big enough voter bloc that it has goosed the Senate into passing a
version of the Healthy Forest Initiative. Until SoCal burned, the
Senate was just going to sit on it until recess, because most Americans
really don't give a shit what happens on public lands. Like you, they
blame people for living in California, rather than accepting the
responsibility for their lack of responsibility.
Thanks to public policy, there is not a single sawmill still operating
in Southern California, so there is no way to defray expenses on
removing all those dead and dying pine trees. That's thanks to a bunch
of easterners and their "save the forests" mentality too. Well, you
just got a good look at what "save the forests" leads to.
OK ... if we "easterners" may in turn blame "westerners" for the damage
hurricanes do to buildings built too close to the shore and in stream
flood plains. Or we could both blame the mid-westerners, but then they'd
probably want to blame us for their tornado damage and droughts.

I ran across and interesting article in the online Ventura County Star:
"Frequent Fires Disrupt Southern California's Ecosystem"
www.insidevc.com/vcs/county_news/article/0,1375,VCS_226_2396424,00.html
It appears that forest trees had little to do with the spread of this fire
into residental areas ... and that some biologists feel that prescribed
burns would be counterproductive.
Larry Caldwell
2003-11-03 03:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
OK ... if we "easterners" may in turn blame "westerners" for the damage
hurricanes do to buildings built too close to the shore and in stream
flood plains. Or we could both blame the mid-westerners, but then they'd
probably want to blame us for their tornado damage and droughts.
A better comparison would be blaming easterners for acid rain, which is
another example of easterners doing widespread damage by being arrogant
and careless. You are the ones who love the gummint owning 2/3 of the
continent west of the Rockies, so take care of your land. You sure as
hell won't let us use it.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Ann
2003-11-03 05:30:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by Ann
OK ... if we "easterners" may in turn blame "westerners" for the damage
hurricanes do to buildings built too close to the shore and in stream
flood plains. Or we could both blame the mid-westerners, but then
they'd probably want to blame us for their tornado damage and droughts.
A better comparison would be blaming easterners for acid rain, which is
another example of easterners doing widespread damage by being arrogant
and careless.
We must be defining "easterner" differently. Some of the pollutants
causing acid rain are from the western part of my state, but most is from
states to the west.
Post by Larry Caldwell
You are the ones who love the gummint owning 2/3 of the continent west
of the Rockies, so take care of your land. You sure as hell won't let
us use it.
Whether the rest of the country loves it, hates it, or is indifferent, it
won't change the fact that the federal government owns the land. And if
you think the federal government is any less high=handed managing its land
in my eastern state, you're mistaken.
mhagen
2003-11-03 17:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by Ann
OK ... if we "easterners" may in turn blame "westerners" for the damage
hurricanes do to buildings built too close to the shore and in stream
flood plains. Or we could both blame the mid-westerners, but then
they'd probably want to blame us for their tornado damage and droughts.
A better comparison would be blaming easterners for acid rain, which is
another example of easterners doing widespread damage by being arrogant
and careless.
We must be defining "easterner" differently. Some of the pollutants
causing acid rain are from the western part of my state, but most is from
states to the west.
Post by Larry Caldwell
You are the ones who love the gummint owning 2/3 of the continent west
of the Rockies, so take care of your land. You sure as hell won't let
us use it.
Whether the rest of the country loves it, hates it, or is indifferent, it
won't change the fact that the federal government owns the land. And if
you think the federal government is any less high=handed managing its land
in my eastern state, you're mistaken.
Thank living in the northern hemisphere for that weather pattern. Here
on the extreme NW edge of the US we occasionally get smoke and high
elevation dust from China - it's a globe ya know...

I suspect most fires will be contained or at least no longer dangerous
by Monday. That's a result of intense fire suppression, the onshore flow
and the fuel type. Brush is a flashy fuel. It responds quickly to
changes in humidity and after a day of drizzle, is effectively fire
proof. It has nothing to do with forests or forestry for the most part-
except politically. If the Santa Anas come back while there are still
hot spots, it will dry in hours and it will all start over again.
Jan Il
2003-11-04 05:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by Ann
OK ... if we "easterners" may in turn blame "westerners" for the damage
hurricanes do to buildings built too close to the shore and in stream
flood plains. Or we could both blame the mid-westerners, but then
they'd probably want to blame us for their tornado damage and droughts.
A better comparison would be blaming easterners for acid rain, which is
another example of easterners doing widespread damage by being arrogant
and careless.
We must be defining "easterner" differently. Some of the pollutants
causing acid rain are from the western part of my state, but most is from
states to the west.
But, remember....YOU choose to live there, so YOU must accept the risks of
such an environmment, and the conditions that cause your damaging weather
conditions. If you don't like the conditions, you should move to a place
where no adverse weather or risks exist. According to the consensus of the
'experts' here, you continue to live where you do, knowing the risks you
face, because you are stupid. Because only a handful of the blessed here
have been able to find Eden, where no perils exist...but, they don't share
that information with anyone else. Nay...they just piously sit in judgement
of the lame sheep who follow the bell.....likeYOU. Otherwise, why would you
continue to live where you do knowing the risks you are subject to?? This is
the overall opinion of all those who know theu are truly all-knowing in
their gifted superiority.

I leave all of those of you here who find such righteous personal
satisfaction in degrading, scoffing and sneering at those who have suffered
and lost so much, even those they loved, with just one thought......someday
it may be someone else who will degards, scoff and sneer at you with your
same smug disdane, and derive your same level of personal satisfaction from
your misery when it's you on the other end.

May God bless you all......sincerely... ,-(

[snip]
Ann
2003-11-04 06:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
Post by Ann
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by Ann
OK ... if we "easterners" may in turn blame "westerners" for the
damage hurricanes do to buildings built too close to the shore and
in stream flood plains. Or we could both blame the mid-westerners,
but then they'd probably want to blame us for their tornado damage
and droughts.
A better comparison would be blaming easterners for acid rain, which
is another example of easterners doing widespread damage by being
arrogant and careless.
We must be defining "easterner" differently. Some of the pollutants
causing acid rain are from the western part of my state, but most is
from states to the west.
But, remember....YOU choose to live there, so YOU must accept the risks
of such an environmment, and the conditions that cause your damaging
weather conditions. If you don't like the conditions, you should move to
a place where no adverse weather or risks exist. According to the
consensus of the 'experts' here, you continue to live where you do,
knowing the risks you face, because you are stupid. Because only a
handful of the blessed here have been able to find Eden, where no perils
exist...but, they don't share that information with anyone else.
Nay...they just piously sit in judgement of the lame sheep who follow
the bell.....likeYOU. Otherwise, why would you continue to live where
you do knowing the risks you are subject to?? This is the overall
opinion of all those who know theu are truly all-knowing in their gifted
superiority.
I leave all of those of you here who find such righteous personal
satisfaction in degrading, scoffing and sneering at those who have
suffered and lost so much, even those they loved, with just one
thought......someday it may be someone else who will degards, scoff and
sneer at you with your same smug disdane, and derive your same level of
personal satisfaction from your misery when it's you on the other end.
May God bless you all......sincerely... ,-(
[snip]
Do you have a complaint about something I posted ... or are you just
spewing?
Larry Harrell
2003-11-02 06:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
So, unless you have really tired to make a difference, you and your cronies
here are just talking to hear the sound of your own voices amongst the rest
of your peers.
Ummm, excuse me?
I have supervised loggers installing fuel breaks and thinning small
merchantable trees (generally 9-18" dbh). I have marked dead and/or
hazardous trees to be cut near roads and other improvements like
campgrounds, fire stations, interpretive centers and picnic areas.

Is that not making a difference?

Larry, at least making a difference for someone enjoying the forest
Jan Il
2003-11-02 09:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Harrell
Post by Jan Il
So, unless you have really tired to make a difference, you and your cronies
here are just talking to hear the sound of your own voices amongst the rest
of your peers.
Ummm, excuse me?
I have supervised loggers installing fuel breaks and thinning small
merchantable trees (generally 9-18" dbh). I have marked dead and/or
hazardous trees to be cut near roads and other improvements like
campgrounds, fire stations, interpretive centers and picnic areas.
Is that not making a difference?
True, Larry...it is making a difference...and I don't mean to minimize your
contributions, or that of others like you, but, I was actually referring to
a united, joint, concentrated effort of all of those of you here, who have
knowledge because of your professions, of many areas that need to be
improved. I realize that many of you are professionals and have experience
in the forestry area.
Post by Larry Harrell
Larry, at least making a difference for someone enjoying the forest
Please, keep making a difference, Larry, wherever you can, whenever you
can.....it is very heartening to know that someone here, is out there really
trying.

Jan ......glad to know that there is still sunshine in the forest....:-)
Larry Caldwell
2003-11-02 15:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
I suppose that you are an advocate of the kind of *controlled burn* that
took place in New Mexico that took numerous lives and caused millions of
dollars of damage, just to make sure that the overgrowth in certain areas is
kept under control.
Many of the neighborhoods that burned, particularly in or near the San
Bernardino National Forest, actually had covenants against anybody
removing trees. Some of those covenants date back to the 1920s, when
there were a lot less trees. Photographs from the 1920s show only a
fraction of the number of trees, and the covenants were to keep
homeowners from cutting down the last of them for firewood.

The proper thing is to advocate clearing excess vegetation. Obviously,
controlled burns are impossible in such close proximity to dwellings, so
enforced removal of hazardous fuel loads is the only realistic course of
action. Nothing is going to save a house when burning branches off of
trees are piling up directly against the siding.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Tallgrass
2003-11-08 03:52:17 UTC
Permalink
<<Now..you talk as if you are an expert...so, for the real test of your
expertise......just WHERE do YOU suggest people live? When the city's inner
communities become too crowded, or so uninhabitable by civilized human
beings, just where do YOU suggest they go to live??? Hey, come on....you
are dogging the unbanites, and blaming them for all the worlds fire
ills...so...just what is YOUR learned opinion of where all these people
should go to live? Besides, to Hell... ???>>

So how *should* all that forest fuel have been managed to reduce the risk of fire?

Linda H., living where tornados reign
JMartin
2003-11-02 04:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
Jan.......from Santee, CA ....home of the Three Ring Circus, not once..but
twice!! Compliments of the Mother of All Fires...produced by The Lost
Signal Firestarter, and directed by Gov. Gray Davis, and the CDF renowned
staff of Cloned Clowns.
Why don't you call the widow of that firefighter and tell her that little
comment? Didn't you forget to blame someone???? Yourself for chosing to
live there maybe????

Guess what? Life has risks, no matter where you live.

Jena
Post by Jan Il
P.S....I just hope someone realizes just how **very** hard I tried to keep
my reply as polite as it was.......
Jan Il
2003-11-02 09:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
Post by Jan Il
Jan.......from Santee, CA ....home of the Three Ring Circus, not once..but
twice!! Compliments of the Mother of All Fires...produced by The Lost
Signal Firestarter, and directed by Gov. Gray Davis, and the CDF renowned
staff of Cloned Clowns.
Why don't you call the widow of that firefighter and tell her that little
comment? Didn't you forget to blame someone???? Yourself for chosing to
live there maybe????
Guess what? Life has risks, no matter where you live.
Jena
The firefighter who died was not a local fireman, he came here from out town
to help our people. He, nor his family lived here. Do you not know who to
read either??

And yeah, I know who to blame...the man who paniced in the hills near Ramona
and set the 'signal' fire in 45-50 MPH Santa Ana winds. The CDF for taking
over 12 hours to respond after the fire was spotted by a spotter plane and
reported. Gray Davis for deliberately dragging his feet to approve all the
necessary resources needed which could have prevented the fires from
spreading and growing to such a magantude because he has had a hard-on for
So. Cal for years. He did the same thing with the electrical crisis of
2000 and 2001. It was not until in hit him in his own wallet when it spread
to No, Cal that he started to do something, but it was so pathetic that is
it was a joke.

You just go ahead and sit there in your little perfect world and judge
everyone else. But, if someday you too may find yourself sitting in the
same situation, and it will do no good to look to your cronies here for
sympathy..as they will just say to you the same thing you are saying to me,
and essentially the rest of those who have been through all these rash of
fires here in Calif.....well, Toots, you got no one to blame but yourself,
afterall, you chose to live there....tough luck, you got just what you
deserved.

Plus, I have already sent the widow of the firefighter a message, of
condolence, and thanks, along with the rest of the people of San Diego. You
truly are a piece.....
Post by JMartin
Post by Jan Il
P.S....I just hope someone realizes just how **very** hard I tried to keep
my reply as polite as it was.......
Raptor
2003-11-02 18:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
And yeah, I know who to blame...the man who paniced in the hills near Ramona
and set the 'signal' fire in 45-50 MPH Santa Ana winds. The CDF for taking
over 12 hours to respond after the fire was spotted by a spotter plane and
reported. Gray Davis for deliberately dragging his feet to approve all the
necessary resources needed which could have prevented the fires from
spreading and growing to such a magantude because he has had a hard-on for
So. Cal for years. He did the same thing with the electrical crisis of
2000 and 2001. It was not until in hit him in his own wallet when it spread
to No, Cal that he started to do something, but it was so pathetic that is
it was a joke.
Pointing out that living entails risk, and living in a fire-prone area
entails risk of losing life or property to fire, is not wrong or even
uncaring.

You forgot to blame previous generations for these fires, for allowing
the fuel to build up over decades, for whatever reason. But it's
somewhat moot, because fire happens. Had it not been a lost hunter's
flare, it could have been any number of other ignition sources. Had it
not been this year or this decade, it would have been another. Even if
these fires burned "well-managed" forests, homes would have been
threatened and/or destroued. If your home is in a forest or other
fire-prone area, there's a good chance it will be destroyed by fire
eventually. You can prepare and try to defend your property or not, but
wildfire is part of living in or on the edge of wilderness. With luck,
those who lost their homes appreciated the years they spent living in
that environment.
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Jan Il
2003-11-02 23:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Jan Il
And yeah, I know who to blame...the man who paniced in the hills near Ramona
and set the 'signal' fire in 45-50 MPH Santa Ana winds. The CDF for taking
over 12 hours to respond after the fire was spotted by a spotter plane and
reported. Gray Davis for deliberately dragging his feet to approve all the
necessary resources needed which could have prevented the fires from
spreading and growing to such a magantude because he has had a hard-on for
So. Cal for years. He did the same thing with the electrical crisis of
2000 and 2001. It was not until in hit him in his own wallet when it spread
to No, Cal that he started to do something, but it was so pathetic that is
it was a joke.
Pointing out that living entails risk, and living in a fire-prone area
entails risk of losing life or property to fire, is not wrong or even
uncaring.
You forgot to blame previous generations for these fires, for allowing
the fuel to build up over decades, for whatever reason. But it's
somewhat moot, because fire happens. Had it not been a lost hunter's
flare, it could have been any number of other ignition sources. Had it
not been this year or this decade, it would have been another. Even if
these fires burned "well-managed" forests, homes would have been
threatened and/or destroued. If your home is in a forest or other
fire-prone area, there's a good chance it will be destroyed by fire
eventually. You can prepare and try to defend your property or not, but
wildfire is part of living in or on the edge of wilderness. With luck,
those who lost their homes appreciated the years they spent living in
that environment.
Well...I am really so glad to know that you, along with Jena, and all the
many other self-absorbed, armchair firefighers and forestry experts are so
turly be blessed, as the last time I heard...there is no perfect place on
this earth...yet, somehow you have all been gifted with the insight to find
that Utopia of places to live, free of any and all perils. We all know
there are only forest and wildfires....and that inner-city and suburban
fires never happen...as the people who live there, like you, are all
perfect.

It's your fantasy world.....and you are all welcome to it....
Post by Raptor
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Raptor
2003-11-03 00:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
Well...I am really so glad to know that you, along with Jena, and all the
many other self-absorbed, armchair firefighers and forestry experts are so
turly be blessed, as the last time I heard...there is no perfect place on
this earth...yet, somehow you have all been gifted with the insight to find
that Utopia of places to live, free of any and all perils. We all know
there are only forest and wildfires....and that inner-city and suburban
fires never happen...as the people who live there, like you, are all
perfect.
It's your fantasy world.....and you are all welcome to it....
Someday, my building will be collapsed by an earthquake, assuming it's
not been razed by developers or burned to a hulk. If I'm lucky, none of
this will happen until I've moved on.

Good luck on that critical thinking project, btw.
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Jan Il
2003-11-03 03:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Jan Il
Well...I am really so glad to know that you, along with Jena, and all the
many other self-absorbed, armchair firefighers and forestry experts are so
turly be blessed, as the last time I heard...there is no perfect place on
this earth...yet, somehow you have all been gifted with the insight to find
that Utopia of places to live, free of any and all perils. We all know
there are only forest and wildfires....and that inner-city and suburban
fires never happen...as the people who live there, like you, are all
perfect.
It's your fantasy world.....and you are all welcome to it....
Someday, my building will be collapsed by an earthquake, assuming it's
not been razed by developers or burned to a hulk. If I'm lucky, none of
this will happen until I've moved on.
Good luck on that critical thinking project, btw.
Thanks, Raptor, best of luck to you too.......;-)

Jan :)
Post by Raptor
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Tallgrass
2003-11-08 04:09:29 UTC
Permalink
"JMartin" <***@comwares.net> wrote in message news:<bo20gv$vb3$***@12.166.20.89>...
<<snipped>>
Post by JMartin
Guess what? Life has risks, no matter where you live.
Jena
And as a friend of mine once said....Sooner or later, your number will
come up; it is just a matter of time. We do what we can to maximize
our time here, but none of us Beat(s) the Reaper.

This he decided after his kid brother was killed in a MVA at an
unregulated intersection.

ttfn.......
Linda H., having beaten the Reaper a couple times now
Joe Zorzin
2003-10-29 16:51:13 UTC
Permalink
How about keeping naked apes and their giant flamable nests out of those
areas?

And/or, what about periodic controlled burns in all inhabited areas,
required by law? Paid for by those home owners?
--
Joe Zorzin

"What Liberal Media" by Erik Alterman
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com
Post by Larry Caldwell
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.
What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Larry Caldwell
2003-10-30 16:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Zorzin
How about keeping naked apes and their giant flamable nests out of those
areas?
So your solution to wildfires is to kill off all the people?
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Bud Hufstetler
2003-10-30 17:50:52 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:51:13 -0500, "Joe Zorzin"
Post by Joe Zorzin
How about keeping naked apes and their giant flamable nests out of those
areas?
How about banning Eastern environmentalists from deciding Western
land use policy? That works for me.
Raptor
2003-10-29 17:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.
What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
I'd sign up for a big jobs program fueled by a pile of new USFS cash to
clear fuels from as-yet unburned backcountry. There's enough
interface out there to give a CCC-style workforce several seasons of
work at the same $~9/hour firefighters make.

Note that the financial/risk equation of whether to build in a forest
(and clear fuels from one's property) includes the 20-odd years of
living in a sylvan paradise. It may not be worth it to a completely
rational brain especially watching such properties burn, but "having to"
shoe deer and moose from the flammable shrubs just off your porch is a
problem that many people appreciate. Were those decades of living in
the middle of Nature worth having it all snuffed out in one day?
Generally not, but it's not quite a no-brainer either.
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Larry Caldwell
2003-10-30 08:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
I'd sign up for a big jobs program fueled by a pile of new USFS cash to
clear fuels from as-yet unburned backcountry. There's enough
interface out there to give a CCC-style workforce several seasons of
work at the same $~9/hour firefighters make.
I doubt that will happen, for a couple of reasons. First, there are
better ways to treat "back country" than clearing fuels. Better forest
management, including thinning of stands and removal of diseased and
insect infested trees is a better course of action. In another century,
that was referred to as "logging."
Post by Raptor
Note that the financial/risk equation of whether to build in a forest
(and clear fuels from one's property) includes the 20-odd years of
living in a sylvan paradise. It may not be worth it to a completely
rational brain especially watching such properties burn, but "having to"
shoe deer and moose from the flammable shrubs just off your porch is a
problem that many people appreciate. Were those decades of living in
the middle of Nature worth having it all snuffed out in one day?
Generally not, but it's not quite a no-brainer either.
California, and more recently Colorado, have certainly been leaders in
the Urban Sprawl movement. If they had enforced simple development
standards, most of the homes could have been saved. I heard on the radio
tonight that if the fire department couldn't drive a truck in the
driveway and turn it around, they were just letting it burn. Even with
shrubs on the porch, an hour with a chain saw will do a great job of
removing flammables from a flower bed. That there were apparently many
thousands of people living in the forest who didn't own a chain saw is a
testimony to the spectator attitude that urban people have toward nature.

The people who have to fight the fires, and the people expected to pay
for fighting those fires, should have something to say about building
standards too.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Raptor
2003-10-30 17:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by Raptor
I'd sign up for a big jobs program fueled by a pile of new USFS cash to
clear fuels from as-yet unburned backcountry. There's enough
interface out there to give a CCC-style workforce several seasons of
work at the same $~9/hour firefighters make.
I doubt that will happen, for a couple of reasons. First, there are
better ways to treat "back country" than clearing fuels. Better forest
management, including thinning of stands and removal of diseased and
insect infested trees is a better course of action. In another century,
that was referred to as "logging."
I doubt it too, but if the economy keeps sucking, such a job/welfare
plan would make sense.

I'm less concerned about the backcountry - let it burn, it'll come back
and right itself in due time. It's been doing that for millenia. I
frankly don't care all that much about property in the woods or the
interface either - you take the good with the bad, the risk with the
reward. But that's what government/firefighters do, protect property
from fire. So since we can't hire several armies worth of forestry
crews to trim back the whole forest, let's work on the more-manageable
borders.
Post by Larry Caldwell
Post by Raptor
Note that the financial/risk equation of whether to build in a forest
(and clear fuels from one's property) includes the 20-odd years of
living in a sylvan paradise. It may not be worth it to a completely
rational brain especially watching such properties burn, but "having to"
shoe deer and moose from the flammable shrubs just off your porch is a
problem that many people appreciate. Were those decades of living in
the middle of Nature worth having it all snuffed out in one day?
Generally not, but it's not quite a no-brainer either.
California, and more recently Colorado, have certainly been leaders in
the Urban Sprawl movement. If they had enforced simple development
standards, most of the homes could have been saved. I heard on the radio
tonight that if the fire department couldn't drive a truck in the
driveway and turn it around, they were just letting it burn. Even with
shrubs on the porch, an hour with a chain saw will do a great job of
removing flammables from a flower bed. That there were apparently many
thousands of people living in the forest who didn't own a chain saw is a
testimony to the spectator attitude that urban people have toward nature.
The people who have to fight the fires, and the people expected to pay
for fighting those fires, should have something to say about building
standards too.
Seems to they do nowadays and it's the older buildings that go away.

(I like to hate the buildings at Snowbird, a local ski resort.
Butt-ugly cement office-like structures, where resort buildings
traditionally try to blend in with lots of natural materials. But
Snowbird could suffer a wildfire relatively unscathed, while neighboring
Alta would lose a lot of buildings in such an event. There's certainly
a happy medium.)
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Larry Harrell
2003-11-01 16:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
I'm less concerned about the backcountry - let it burn, it'll come back
and right itself in due time. It's been doing that for millenia. I
frankly don't care all that much about property in the woods or the
interface either - you take the good with the bad, the risk with the
reward. But that's what government/firefighters do, protect property
from fire. So since we can't hire several armies worth of forestry
crews to trim back the whole forest, let's work on the more-manageable
borders.
Let's see, an old growth forest in the San Bernardino mountains will
take, oh, about 400 years to grow. That is, without any intervention
by man. Yes, forests HAVE been doing this for millenia but, how come
centuries-old trees are not surviving this merely moderate drought?
Are MILLIONS of dead trees "natural"?!?!?! Firefighters will only
protect the homes that have a defensible space. You can't expect our
brave and noble firefighters to go in and risk their lives to save a
home that didn't have brush and trees cleared out.

Larry, a true environmentalist
Bud Hufstetler
2003-11-01 19:20:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Harrell
Let's see, an old growth forest in the San Bernardino mountains will
take, oh, about 400 years to grow. That is, without any intervention
by man. Yes, forests HAVE been doing this for millenia but, how come
centuries-old trees are not surviving this merely moderate drought?
Are MILLIONS of dead trees "natural"?!?!?! Firefighters will only
protect the homes that have a defensible space. You can't expect our
brave and noble firefighters to go in and risk their lives to save a
home that didn't have brush and trees cleared out.
Larry, a true environmentalist
The reason the SBNF is in such dire staits boils down to overgrowth
and too high a tree count t osupport and defend itself. Historically,
the SBNF averaged about 50 trees per acre, now it is above 500 trees
per acre thanks to no management policies. With that kind of load,
there just isn't enough moisture to go around and it makes it
extremely easy for the bark beetle to decimate the entire forest. The
current estimate is 60% of the trees have been killed by the beetle
and that is expected to climp to 90% by the end of 2004.

Bud
Gary Coffman
2003-11-01 22:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bud Hufstetler
Post by Larry Harrell
Let's see, an old growth forest in the San Bernardino mountains will
take, oh, about 400 years to grow. That is, without any intervention
by man. Yes, forests HAVE been doing this for millenia but, how come
centuries-old trees are not surviving this merely moderate drought?
Are MILLIONS of dead trees "natural"?!?!?! Firefighters will only
protect the homes that have a defensible space. You can't expect our
brave and noble firefighters to go in and risk their lives to save a
home that didn't have brush and trees cleared out.
Larry, a true environmentalist
The reason the SBNF is in such dire staits boils down to overgrowth
and too high a tree count t osupport and defend itself. Historically,
the SBNF averaged about 50 trees per acre, now it is above 500 trees
per acre thanks to no management policies. With that kind of load,
there just isn't enough moisture to go around and it makes it
extremely easy for the bark beetle to decimate the entire forest. The
current estimate is 60% of the trees have been killed by the beetle
and that is expected to climp to 90% by the end of 2004.
Management has been exercised, it has just been wrong headed
management. There has been deliberate interference with the
normal mechanisms which regulate the forest and keep it healthy.

Forest density is naturally controlled by fire and disease. Logging
is an intelligent alternative to letting those natural processes run
their course. But logging has been prohibited. Small wild fires have
been suppressed, So disease has run rampant. Now there is a very
sick forest with a gross over-abundance of dry fuel. That's a recipe
for very large uncontrollable fires to occur.

And no surprise, that's just what is happening. This could have
been foreseen. In fact it was foreseen. But the relatively benign
solutions to the problem of logging and controlled burns weren't
politically correct, so they weren't applied.

Gary
Larry Harrell
2003-11-02 02:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Gary Coffman <***@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<***@4ax.com>...

You guys are preaching to the choir with me. Actually, I'm a
middle-of-the-roader regarding forest management. I still think we
need to have public opinion in order to best do our job in the
National Forests. My opinion is that we need to have a Forest Service
that the public can trust to do the right thing for our Forests. Right
now, that's completely impossible because, believe it or not, I will
admit to seeing corruption within the Forest Service. I've been on the
receiving end of it before, too (my career suffered because they broke
their own rules and enacted bad policies). NEPA and the ESA do NOT
need to be eliminated. Maybe a little minor tweaking, though. Large
healthy trees must NEVER be cut! Large, being 30" dbh and bigger. This
only applies to California forests and your forests may vary <G>.

Just a little background for those who are itching to call me an
"industry shill". I'd like to see the lumber mill monopolies broken
up. Maybe regional mills should be run by local government entities.
Scary thought, though.

Anyway, I surely hope that the rest of the Big Bear area doesn't burn.
It's not too late to intervene and save it.

Larry
Gary Coffman
2003-11-02 07:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Harrell
You guys are preaching to the choir with me.
Yeah, I appreciate that. The problem is primarily a political one.

Gary
Tallgrass
2003-11-08 04:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bud Hufstetler
The reason the SBNF is in such dire staits boils down to overgrowth
and too high a tree count t osupport and defend itself. Historically,
the SBNF averaged about 50 trees per acre, now it is above 500 trees
per acre thanks to no management policies. With that kind of load,
there just isn't enough moisture to go around and it makes it
extremely easy for the bark beetle to decimate the entire forest. The
current estimate is 60% of the trees have been killed by the beetle
and that is expected to climp to 90% by the end of 2004.
Bud
Betcha there are a Lot fewer bark beetles around now, since this fire.

Linda H.
mhagen
2003-11-08 18:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Curmudgeon mode ON:
I keep hearing talk about "balance" as if nature was a judge and could
pick a halfway point between extremes. Well folks, there is no judge, no
balance, no bell curve, and a human-centric "safe" ecology is going to
take massive and long term intervention. I doubt the will or the $$ are
there for the long haul, or even a year past the next election. Aside
from giving timber interests a short term attitude boost, I doubt there
will be any real change. Roadless areas are still too low value to enter
and manage, even with a green light on sensible methods. On the other
hand, the urban interface and commercial logging areas are reachable and
will support utilization down to small piece sizes - how small depending
on the subsidy.

People who insist on living in areas which cannot be managed will be in
the same boat they've always been in. I live in such an interface - but
with wide cleared space, a metal roof, no gutters and several ponds and
buried cisterns located where the a fire truck can get to them. I also
carry homeowners insurance if they have other priorities that day or if
I'm not home to run my own pump. The neighborhood is just as prepared.
No federal program is ever going to help us.
Larry Harrell
2003-11-08 14:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tallgrass
Post by Bud Hufstetler
The reason the SBNF is in such dire staits boils down to overgrowth
and too high a tree count t osupport and defend itself. Historically,
the SBNF averaged about 50 trees per acre, now it is above 500 trees
per acre thanks to no management policies. With that kind of load,
there just isn't enough moisture to go around and it makes it
extremely easy for the bark beetle to decimate the entire forest. The
current estimate is 60% of the trees have been killed by the beetle
and that is expected to climp to 90% by the end of 2004.
Bud
Betcha there are a Lot fewer bark beetles around now, since this fire.
Linda H.
Nope, fires usually increase the concentrations of bark beetles. Trees
are weakened further and many trees can serve as brood trees,
producing several generations of bark beetles before the tree actually
dies. And, there are still vast acreages of stressed forest that
didn't burn and are still at risk of catastrophic fire. Normal
rainfall and thinning is the only reasonable method of restoring bark
beetles to their normal density.
Another method advocated by "preservationists" is to let Mother Nature
restore those forests. However, she wants to thin using bark beetles
and then remove all the excess fuels with catastrophic wildfire.
Voila! Eco-systems are "rebalanced" and those pesky human dwellings
are "removed". Then, if we can eliminate humans from those ecosystems
for 400 years, we'll have new old growth forests!

Larry, Federal bark beetle wrangler

PS Bark beetles continue to progress northward into the Sequoia
National Forest. Since we can't salvage dead trees in Giant Sequoia
groves, will they be closed for safety reasons? Will people trade
stumps for safety? It would be nice if we could utilize those large
and valuable dead trees (non-GS trees) but, that can never happen
within any GS grove. However, the rest of the 300,000 acres within the
Giant Sequoia National Monument is experiencing serious bark beetle
mortality.

Raptor
2003-11-02 18:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Harrell
Post by Raptor
I'm less concerned about the backcountry - let it burn, it'll come back
and right itself in due time. It's been doing that for millenia. I
frankly don't care all that much about property in the woods or the
interface either - you take the good with the bad, the risk with the
reward. But that's what government/firefighters do, protect property
from fire. So since we can't hire several armies worth of forestry
crews to trim back the whole forest, let's work on the more-manageable
borders.
Let's see, an old growth forest in the San Bernardino mountains will
take, oh, about 400 years to grow. That is, without any intervention
by man. Yes, forests HAVE been doing this for millenia but, how come
centuries-old trees are not surviving this merely moderate drought?
Are MILLIONS of dead trees "natural"?!?!?! Firefighters will only
protect the homes that have a defensible space. You can't expect our
brave and noble firefighters to go in and risk their lives to save a
home that didn't have brush and trees cleared out.
Larry, a true environmentalist
Humans are ultimately part of nature. Most of us tend to try to live as
such to varying degrees. So semantically whatever impact we have on
Nature is "natural." But I digress, a little.

Whether it takes 400 or just 80 years for the forest to recover to the
state it was in is largely irrelevent to us since we won't be there to
see it. Neither will the animals, and the trees really couldn't care less.

Our recent decades of mismanagement (whatever that is) is a blip in
time, annoying just to us, the current generations. Besides the
drought, there's insect infestations (possibly abetted by our
mismanagement). They've happened before too. Millions of dead trees
ARE natural, regardless of your definition of "natural." They've
happened before without significant human activity.

Firefighters do try to protect all property, properly defended or not.
It's just a matter of how hard they try. I wouldn't describe them as
"noble" though, and bravery is overrated in wildland firefighting. :-)
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
Larry Harrell
2003-11-10 04:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Larry Harrell
Let's see, an old growth forest in the San Bernardino mountains will
take, oh, about 400 years to grow. That is, without any intervention
by man. Yes, forests HAVE been doing this for millenia but, how come
centuries-old trees are not surviving this merely moderate drought?
Are MILLIONS of dead trees "natural"?!?!?! Firefighters will only
protect the homes that have a defensible space. You can't expect our
brave and noble firefighters to go in and risk their lives to save a
home that didn't have brush and trees cleared out.
Larry, a true environmentalist
Humans are ultimately part of nature. Most of us tend to try to live as
such to varying degrees. So semantically whatever impact we have on
Nature is "natural." But I digress, a little.
If you use that scenario, it is "natural" for humans to log forests,
to some degree. IMHO it is more "natural" for humans to attempt to
"simulate" some natural processes, like fire.
Post by Raptor
Whether it takes 400 or just 80 years for the forest to recover to the
state it was in is largely irrelevent to us since we won't be there to
see it. Neither will the animals, and the trees really couldn't care less.
How about our offspring not having old growth to look at and recreate
in because we "let" it burn up, claiming it's "natural"? The old
growth in the LA area forests grew large and healthy before the white
man started putting fires out. Today's 80 year old trees, growing up
in crowded conditions, might only be 12" dbh and subject to drought
and bark beetles.
Post by Raptor
Our recent decades of mismanagement (whatever that is) is a blip in
time, annoying just to us, the current generations. Besides the
drought, there's insect infestations (possibly abetted by our
mismanagement). They've happened before too. Millions of dead trees
ARE natural, regardless of your definition of "natural." They've
happened before without significant human activity.
Our goals should be to restore forests which still have old growth
left in them, as well as growing forests which survive droughts, fires
and bark beetles. Today's bark beetle infestations are not "natural".
There's more suitable bark beetle "habitat" than there has EVER been,
because of past mismanagement on both sides. Before the white man came
and started putting out fires, "natural" meant balanced and "cool"
fires kept our forests healthy and clean.

A sensible, middle-of-the-road approach, to carefully and gently
"manage" our forests back to a more "natural" and healthy state, is
needed. Millions of acres of Federal lands are at risk to catastrophic
fire and many, many communities are located within those forests.
Post by Raptor
Firefighters do try to protect all property, properly defended or not.
It's just a matter of how hard they try. I wouldn't describe them as
"noble" though, and bravery is overrated in wildland firefighting. :-)
Have you ever had to use a shovel to shield your face from the intense
heat of an out of control wildfire? Have you ever been the only fire
fighter working a wildfire? Have you ever seen 200 foot tall flames up
close? REALLY CLOSE?!?! I'm just glad we have Hotshots, engine crews
and convict crews who risk their lives on some fires. I do agree that
"noble" doesn't apply to the rank and file of fire fighters but, they
do work very hard, risking it all sometimes, to save lives, property
and forests.

Larry, your window into the USFS
Raptor
2003-11-10 05:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Harrell
Our goals should be to restore forests which still have old growth
left in them, as well as growing forests which survive droughts, fires
and bark beetles. Today's bark beetle infestations are not "natural".
There's more suitable bark beetle "habitat" than there has EVER been,
because of past mismanagement on both sides. Before the white man came
and started putting out fires, "natural" meant balanced and "cool"
fires kept our forests healthy and clean.
A sensible, middle-of-the-road approach, to carefully and gently
"manage" our forests back to a more "natural" and healthy state, is
needed. Millions of acres of Federal lands are at risk to catastrophic
fire and many, many communities are located within those forests.
I sure can't disagree, but money doesn't grow on those trees. As I said
(possibly in another thread) I'd sign up for a massive jobs program
clearing range land to a more natural state. It just ain't gonna happen.
Post by Larry Harrell
Post by Raptor
Firefighters do try to protect all property, properly defended or not.
It's just a matter of how hard they try. I wouldn't describe them as
"noble" though, and bravery is overrated in wildland firefighting. :-)
Have you ever had to use a shovel to shield your face from the intense
heat of an out of control wildfire? Have you ever been the only fire
fighter working a wildfire? Have you ever seen 200 foot tall flames up
close? REALLY CLOSE?!?! I'm just glad we have Hotshots, engine crews
and convict crews who risk their lives on some fires. I do agree that
"noble" doesn't apply to the rank and file of fire fighters but, they
do work very hard, risking it all sometimes, to save lives, property
and forests.
No, I've just climbed 800 feet up a 40-degree slope in 100-degree temps,
carrying a pulaski and gas can. That was enough hard work for me. When
I said "bravery is overrated" I meant that people aren't supposed to die
fighting fires, especially those where only property is at risk. I
didn't work enough fires to gain an impression that ff-ers are expected
to put themselves at risk to stop a wildfire. My limited experience
taught me that bravery is not called for, just a hell of a lot of sweat
and tolerance for dirt and grime.
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
JMartin
2003-10-30 03:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.
I remember when they used to do controlled burns, but then sometimes the
controlled burns would get away from them, burn something down and there
would be hell to pay. I do agree that fuel management is critical to
prevent huge fires such as this. I'm not sure what the best way to do that
is.
Post by Larry Caldwell
What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.
It would seem to me that this little cycle up in the San Bernardino
Mountains would be a pretty natural cycle...drought weakens the trees, bark
beetles kill the trees making it ripe for a fire which I bet seriously
curtails the bark beetles, as well as clearing out the trees for new growth.

Is there a better way that is more compatible for nature and what humans
think they need? Probably, but just as probable is that no one is going to
agree on how to do it.

Jena
Post by Larry Caldwell
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Larry Caldwell
2003-10-30 08:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
It would seem to me that this little cycle up in the San Bernardino
Mountains would be a pretty natural cycle...drought weakens the trees, bark
beetles kill the trees making it ripe for a fire which I bet seriously
curtails the bark beetles, as well as clearing out the trees for new growth.
I hear that this is not a drought in SoCal, just a normal year. In water
limited areas, trees need to be thinned or they kill each other out
competing for water. The "natural" cycle is actually the malicious
neglect of a national resource by the landlord - the American people.
The land owner is failing to maintain the land in a productive fashion,
and the results are immensely destructive.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
JMartin
2003-10-30 13:33:51 UTC
Permalink
I just saw a neighborhood on the news. They said it was saved because the
homeowners (all of them) cleared the brush. You could see where it had been
cleared up the hill behind the homes, not just from their tiny, little
yards.

When I lived out there, they were always telling people to clear the brush,
clear the brush, clear the brush. I don't remember how far you were
supposed to go, but I don't feel sorry for the folks who ignored that. I
don't know how you clear brush when you live in a forest though...

I never thought of leaving enough room for a fire truck to turn around. If
nothing else, they ought in make them keep larger lots. With those little
city lots, the houses are so close to each other.
enigma
2003-10-30 15:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
When I lived out there, they were always telling people to
clear the brush, clear the brush, clear the brush. I don't
remember how far you were supposed to go, but I don't feel
sorry for the folks who ignored that. I don't know how you
clear brush when you live in a forest though...
goats, llamas, Scottish Highland cows...
we have 20 acres of sugarbush with no undergrowth because we
run the stock through there every so often. i have 10 acres
across my creek that is a mess of undergrowth. we're patching
fence around it now so we can send in the clean-up crew. it
takes 2 llamas 2 days to clean out an acre, more or less (of
course that was mostly blueberry bushes... and i still have to
take out the bigger branches they merely debarked)
one of my friends bought her Scottish Highlands just to keep
brush out of her horse pastures. seems to work for her too.
lee
Ann
2003-10-30 15:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
I just saw a neighborhood on the news. They said it was saved because
the homeowners (all of them) cleared the brush. You could see where it
had been cleared up the hill behind the homes, not just from their tiny,
little yards.
When I lived out there, they were always telling people to clear the
brush, clear the brush, clear the brush. I don't remember how far you
were supposed to go, but I don't feel sorry for the folks who ignored
that. I don't know how you clear brush when you live in a forest
though...
I never thought of leaving enough room for a fire truck to turn around.
If nothing else, they ought in make them keep larger lots. With those
little city lots, the houses are so close to each other.
Anyone know if the burning houses themselves contribute to the progress of
the fire? There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I wouldn't want
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
Raptor
2003-10-30 18:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
Post by JMartin
I just saw a neighborhood on the news. They said it was saved because
the homeowners (all of them) cleared the brush. You could see where it
had been cleared up the hill behind the homes, not just from their tiny,
little yards.
When I lived out there, they were always telling people to clear the
brush, clear the brush, clear the brush. I don't remember how far you
were supposed to go, but I don't feel sorry for the folks who ignored
that. I don't know how you clear brush when you live in a forest
though...
I never thought of leaving enough room for a fire truck to turn around.
If nothing else, they ought in make them keep larger lots. With those
little city lots, the houses are so close to each other.
Anyone know if the burning houses themselves contribute to the progress of
the fire? There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I wouldn't want
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
They probably didn't contribute to the spread much, with fire equipment
readily at hand to stop it. But air quality is a major concern for
wildland fire-fighters. They tend to ignore the regular smoke and ash
from natural fuels, but synthetics and chemicals in structures, dumps,
etc., that are in the path of a wildfire are one of the many hazards
they're taught to watch out for.
--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
JMartin
2003-10-30 18:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
Anyone know if the burning houses themselves contribute to the progress of
the fire?
The fire itself will create it's own little weather pattern and winds.

There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
Post by Ann
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I wouldn't want
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
I have never, ever seen a vinyl sided house in California. I'm sure there
are some there, but they were all stucco or in the case of older ones, wood
siding.

Jena
Ann
2003-10-30 19:00:21 UTC
Permalink
"Ann" wrote <...>
There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
Post by Ann
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I
wouldn't
want
Post by Ann
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
I have never, ever seen a vinyl sided house in California. I'm sure
there are some there, but they were all stucco or in the case of older
ones, wood siding.
Jena
I wondered when I posted, but I figured there must be some manufactured
housing in California. (Been decades since I've been there.) I live in
rural NE where a lot of people opt for the convenience (quick build) and
price.
JMartin
2003-10-31 01:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
"Ann" wrote <...>
There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
Post by Ann
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I
wouldn't
want
Post by Ann
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
I have never, ever seen a vinyl sided house in California. I'm sure
there are some there, but they were all stucco or in the case of older
ones, wood siding.
Jena
I wondered when I posted, but I figured there must be some manufactured
housing in California. (Been decades since I've been there.) I live in
rural NE where a lot of people opt for the convenience (quick build) and
price.
Ooops. I didn't even think of manufactured housing. There are some, but
they are usually confined to the trailer parks.

Jena
Jan Il
2003-11-01 09:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
Post by Ann
"Ann" wrote <...>
There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
Post by Ann
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I
wouldn't
want
Post by Ann
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
I have never, ever seen a vinyl sided house in California. I'm sure
there are some there, but they were all stucco or in the case of older
ones, wood siding.
Jena
I wondered when I posted, but I figured there must be some manufactured
housing in California. (Been decades since I've been there.) I live in
rural NE where a lot of people opt for the convenience (quick build) and
price.
Ooops. I didn't even think of manufactured housing. There are some, but
they are usually confined to the trailer parks.
Jena
I think perhaps Jena is thinking more along the lines of modular (pre-fab)
construction homes, not so much Mobile Homes. I remember them most from the
mid 1950's to the late 1960's, during the urban expansion explosion.

There may not be that many modular home tracts in Calif. as in other parts
of the country, but there are a bazillion Mobile Homes (trailers) in Calif.,
and some are as old as 30-40 years old in some areas. So are the parks they
area in, and the management has neglected to keep up with proper fire codes
and landscape managment. Far too many. Especially those in the rural areas.
So, yeah, they are fodder for the flames under fire conditions. But, check
it out, the current fire situation did not inlcude that many MHP's, but more
recently built homes, in modern neighborhoods, supposedly with fire
retardant roofing, insulation, landscaping, etc. and yet, they went up like
so much kindling. ???

P.S....just for the record, I live in a Mobile Home Park in Santee, CA. Our
park has no tall trees, has desert oriented landscaping to conserve water in
keeping with our inland desert climate, and all have a metal roof.

Jan :)
JMartin
2003-11-01 17:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
Post by JMartin
Post by Ann
"Ann" wrote <...>
There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
Post by Ann
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I
wouldn't
want
Post by Ann
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
I have never, ever seen a vinyl sided house in California. I'm sure
there are some there, but they were all stucco or in the case of older
ones, wood siding.
Jena
I wondered when I posted, but I figured there must be some
manufactured
Post by Jan Il
Post by JMartin
Post by Ann
housing in California. (Been decades since I've been there.) I live in
rural NE where a lot of people opt for the convenience (quick build) and
price.
Ooops. I didn't even think of manufactured housing. There are some, but
they are usually confined to the trailer parks.
Jena
I think perhaps Jena is thinking more along the lines of modular (pre-fab)
construction homes, not so much Mobile Homes. I remember them most from the
mid 1950's to the late 1960's, during the urban expansion explosion.
There may not be that many modular home tracts in Calif. as in other parts
of the country, but there are a bazillion Mobile Homes (trailers) in Calif.,
and some are as old as 30-40 years old in some areas. So are the parks they
area in, and the management has neglected to keep up with proper fire codes
and landscape managment. Far too many. Especially those in the rural areas.
So, yeah, they are fodder for the flames under fire conditions. But, check
it out, the current fire situation did not inlcude that many MHP's, but more
recently built homes, in modern neighborhoods, supposedly with fire
retardant roofing, insulation, landscaping, etc. and yet, they went up like
so much kindling. ???
Yeah. I was tripping on the pictures on the news of a housing tract. All
the houses were gone, but their landscaping was still there, still green,
including trees. How the heck does that work? I guess the houses are more
combustible than a well-watered lawn. That's what got me thinking about
small lots being a problem. If the landscaping isn't burning, then the
houses were the fuel and perhaps larger lot requirements would have stopped
that from spreading.

Jena
Post by Jan Il
P.S....just for the record, I live in a Mobile Home Park in Santee, CA. Our
park has no tall trees, has desert oriented landscaping to conserve water in
keeping with our inland desert climate, and all have a metal roof.
Jan :)
mhagen
2003-11-01 18:19:12 UTC
Permalink
yada yada

so much kindling. ???
Post by JMartin
Yeah. I was tripping on the pictures on the news of a housing tract. All
the houses were gone, but their landscaping was still there, still green,
including trees. How the heck does that work? I guess the houses are more
combustible than a well-watered lawn. That's what got me thinking about
small lots being a problem. If the landscaping isn't burning, then the
houses were the fuel and perhaps larger lot requirements would have stopped
that from spreading.
I'll leave wildland firefighting in this one..


That's a good point. I've noticed this in many interface fires. I don't
KNOW the answer but a guess would be that people water their lawns and
to a great extent do the right thing as far as breaking the fire ladder
around homes. People usually leave open space around homes with
scattered trees and shrubs - it's not like a dense forest, more of a
savanna.

When you get a conflagration - fire storm, hurricane winds, lots of
explosive gas in the turbulence - normal protection measures are totally
inadequate. Flame lengths are hundreds of feet longer than that
protected space, which would have worked for a simple ground fire. So,
the homes themselves become the heavy fuels. The wind borne flames pass
right over the green lawns and concrete.

Any fire behavior officers out there, chime in!
KSL
2003-11-01 19:08:30 UTC
Permalink
The extract copied below is from the NSW Rural Fire Service's webpage

http://www.bushfire.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?cid=87&the_start=25

This is an excellent website and worth a long surf.

--- From the NSW RFS website ---
Burning embers blown ahead of a bush fire are the most common cause of bush
fires igniting houses and causing damage. Burning material can lodge in
cracks or crevices, blow into the roof space through openings, get
underneath a house that has an open space between the floor and the ground,
or even get inside a house through open or badly fitting doors or windows.
The strong winds that accompany bush fires can make the situation worse by
dislodging roofing allowing embers to get into the ceiling of the house and
set it alight on the inside.

Keep the exterior design of your house simple to avoid creating
hard-to-get-at spots where debris, such as leaves and twigs, can get trapped
on the roof, against the walls or under the floor.

These spots are likely to trap embers during a fire and are often the source
of structural fires when accumulated debris ignites.

To reduce the risk of embers getting underneath a house, it is safest to
build on a reinforced concrete slab, especially if the slab is at ground
level. Where the site is on a slope, it is safer to set the house into the
slope than to support it on posts. If the slab is above ground level, it
should rest on non-flammable supports, and the space between the ground and
the floor should be bricked up. Timber should not be used at ground level.
Any timber used in raised floors and flooring supports should be treated to
a fire-resistant standard.

Fit vents under the floor and in walls, eaves and roofs with spark-proof
metal screens. Metal plates that can be fixed into place to cover vents in
times of bush fire emergency will add an extra level of safety.
Non-flammable fittings should be in place to allow external non-corroding
spark proof screens to be fixed to all windows and sliding doors. They
should be sealed at the top and bottom and should cover the entire opening.
Fit external hinged doors with a spark-proof metal screen door that covers
the whole of the door space so that burning material cannot blow in at the
top or bottom.

Avoid decorative timber work, such as trellises and latticework, on the
exposed sides of the building. Timber balconies and verandahs can also trap
wind-borne sparks, so keep them to a minimum and restrict them to the
eastern side of the house.

A simple roof design can lessen the risk of bush fire damage. For example, a
one-pitch roof is the easiest to protect. Roof valleys and features like
dormer windows and skylights should be avoided if possible because they can
trap both flammable debris and sparks. If you do include these types of
windows in your design, they should be made of wired or double glazed glass
in steel frames. This will reduce the risk of flames penetrating through the
window space if trapped debris does ignite during a bush fire.

Spark-proof all chimneys and fit internal dampers to them. Fit metal screens
to your fireplace openings to prevent any sparks that may blow down the
chimney during a bush fire from igniting the inside of your home.

Roof spaces cause particular problems. Design attics, ceilings and roof
spaces with care. Ceiling access holes should be conveniently positioned and
big enough to allow easy access into the ceiling space during bush fires, to
enable you to extinguish small fires that may have been ignited by ember
attack.

Steel roofing material is the safest under extreme bush fire conditions but
corrugations in the roofing material can allow sparks to enter the roof
space. Slate or tiled roofs need a supporting structure that is able to keep
sparks out and can withstand high temperatures. The winds that accompany
bush fires can be very intense, so it is important that tiles are fixed
firmly in place to reduce the risk of tiles becoming dislodged and allowing
the entry of embers. Wood shingles and bituminous roofing are the most
vulnerable roofing materials and should not be used.

Gutters tend to collect leaves and other debris that can easily ignite
during bush fires. This means that gutters need to be cleared regularly. You
may prefer to use well-designed leafless guttering instead of traditional
open guttering. Gutters should also be designed and fixed so that fire
cannot spread from them if collected debris does ignite, also, the gutter
should be capable of holding water once downpipes have been sealed. Consider
installing ground-level rubble drain collectors instead of fitting gutters
if council regulations permit.

Downpipes can be blocked in many ways including commercially available
devices. Flooding of gutters can help provide additional protection for your
house during times of bush fire attack. Water overflow from gutters can also
give some extra protection.

--- End of excerpt ---
Post by JMartin
Yeah. I was tripping on the pictures on the news of a housing tract. All
the houses were gone, but their landscaping was still there, still green,
including trees. How the heck does that work? I guess the houses are more
combustible than a well-watered lawn. That's what got me thinking about
small lots being a problem. If the landscaping isn't burning, then the
houses were the fuel and perhaps larger lot requirements would have stopped
that from spreading.
Jena
Larry Caldwell
2003-11-02 15:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by KSL
Gutters tend to collect leaves and other debris that can easily ignite
during bush fires. This means that gutters need to be cleared regularly.
Bingo. The primary point of ignition for many houses during a wildfire
is debris in the gutters. This burns up under the roofing overhang and
sets the roof sheathing on fire. A metal roof won't protect a house if
the gutter is full of leaves.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
JMartin
2003-11-01 21:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
Yeah. I was tripping on the pictures on the news of a housing tract. All
the houses were gone, but their landscaping was still there, still green,
including trees. How the heck does that work?
I just talked to a friend who lives a couple miles from the above mentioned
neighborhood. She told me that many of the homes in there had wood shingle
roofs. That certainly explains it. I didn't know there were any of those
left in CA!!! She also stated it was an affluent area and she couldn't
understand why more people didn't change their roofs.

Her house didn't burn. The fire was very close, but was stopped by a
cemetary, of all things.

Jena



I guess the houses are more
Post by JMartin
combustible than a well-watered lawn. That's what got me thinking about
small lots being a problem. If the landscaping isn't burning, then the
houses were the fuel and perhaps larger lot requirements would have stopped
that from spreading.
Jena
Post by Jan Il
P.S....just for the record, I live in a Mobile Home Park in Santee, CA.
Our
Post by Jan Il
park has no tall trees, has desert oriented landscaping to conserve
water
Post by JMartin
in
Post by Jan Il
keeping with our inland desert climate, and all have a metal roof.
Jan :)
Ann
2003-11-01 18:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Il
Post by JMartin
Post by Ann
"Ann" wrote <...>
There is so much synthetic fiber, foam, and other plastics used
Post by Ann
in home furnishings. And for sure, from the air-quality pov, I
wouldn't
want
Post by Ann
to be downwind of a burning vinyl-sided house.
I have never, ever seen a vinyl sided house in California. I'm
sure there are some there, but they were all stucco or in the case
of older ones, wood siding.
Jena
I wondered when I posted, but I figured there must be some
manufactured housing in California. (Been decades since I've been
there.) I live in rural NE where a lot of people opt for the
convenience (quick build) and price.
Ooops. I didn't even think of manufactured housing. There are some,
but they are usually confined to the trailer parks.
Jena
I think perhaps Jena is thinking more along the lines of modular
(pre-fab) construction homes, not so much Mobile Homes. I remember them
most from the mid 1950's to the late 1960's, during the urban expansion
explosion.
I (Ann) was thinking of essentially permanent housing on a foundation ...
sometimes called double-wides. At least here (northeast), it almost all
has vinyl siding. And the fumes from burning (or otherwise degrading) pvc
is nasty stuff.
Post by Jan Il
There may not be that many modular home tracts in Calif. as in other
parts of the country, but there are a bazillion Mobile Homes (trailers)
in Calif., and some are as old as 30-40 years old in some areas. So are
the parks they area in, and the management has neglected to keep up with
proper fire codes and landscape managment. Far too many. Especially
those in the rural areas. So, yeah, they are fodder for the flames under
fire conditions. But, check it out, the current fire situation did not
inlcude that many MHP's, but more recently built homes, in modern
neighborhoods, supposedly with fire retardant roofing, insulation,
landscaping, etc. and yet, they went up like so much kindling. ???
Don't know if it's correct or not, but a couple years ago I read that a
common way for houses to ignite in a wildfire situation is for sparks to
get in via roof eave (and other attic) vents. Recently built houses are
likely to be built with lots of attic ventilation ... much of it
continuous strips of plastic or thin matal that's prone to slump or buckle
from the heat of the fire. This could have had absolutely nothing to do
with it, but I wonder.
Post by Jan Il
P.S....just for the record, I live in a Mobile Home Park in Santee, CA.
Our park has no tall trees, has desert oriented landscaping to conserve
water in keeping with our inland desert climate, and all have a metal
roof.
Jan :)
Bud Hufstetler
2003-11-01 19:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMartin
I just saw a neighborhood on the news. They said it was saved because the
homeowners (all of them) cleared the brush. You could see where it had been
cleared up the hill behind the homes, not just from their tiny, little
yards.
When I lived out there, they were always telling people to clear the brush,
clear the brush, clear the brush. I don't remember how far you were
supposed to go, but I don't feel sorry for the folks who ignored that. I
don't know how you clear brush when you live in a forest though...
I never thought of leaving enough room for a fire truck to turn around. If
nothing else, they ought in make them keep larger lots. With those little
city lots, the houses are so close to each other.
I grew up not far from the neighorhood in San Bernardino that burned.
Even though it is only a couple of miles from the Northpark
neighborhood where 286 homes were lost in November,1981, the majority
of homeowners chose to ignore the many lessons learned from that fire.
After Northpark went up during the Panorama fire, California outlawed
the installation of cedar shake roofs. This means that any shake roofs
on California houses now are composed of extremely dry shingles over
20 years old. The last time that I was through the SB neighborhood
that burned last Saturday was about 2 years ago. At that time, well
over 50% of the homes still had roofs of cedar shake shingles.

If you contrast that neighborhood to the newr neighborhoods in Fontana
that faced an even fiercer firestorm without a single loss the day
before, it doesn't take a genius to understand why the losses were so
high. A 2 mile wide, 80 foot wall of flame bore down on the Fontana
neighborhood at about 40 miles per hour. Thanks to being built to
newer build codes that required tile roofing, boxed in overhangs and
fascia composed of cementicious material rather than wood, the fire
wasn't able to gain a foothold and was quickly diverted. The same
result was seen in the Stevenson Ranch area of Simi Valley.

Bud
Larry Harrell
2003-10-30 13:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.
Of course, our two Democratic Senators are dragging their feet on
plans to improve forest health. Congress is still in gridlock and if
they don't act within the next week or so, nothing will happen before
next year's fire season. It's also clear that thinning only within a
1/4 mile of communities is not going to provide the protection from
fire that will be effective. This scenario hasn't played out yet and
THOUSANDS more homes and businesses are still at risk.
Post by Larry Caldwell
What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.
And this isn't the only place where these conditions exist. Lake Tahoe
is a disaster in waiting. Bark beetles killed at least one out of
every three trees back in the early 90's. Most of those trees were
never harvested and lie in wait for nature to "rebalance" the
ecosystem by fire. The similarities to the LA mountains are striking.
People regard Tahoe as "the Jewel of the Sierra" and consider it
off-limits to all logging. The concentration of homes surrounded by
tinder dry, fuel-filled forests is almost identical. The idea that "it
can't happen here" is prevalent amongst the resident "ostriches".
Post by Larry Caldwell
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
It does smell kinda smokey here on assignment on the Sequoia. I can't
quite pick up the radio traffic from the fires but the smoke is
definitely here.

What I also smell is a TV mini series on the conflagration.

Larry, USFS flunky
Larry Caldwell
2003-10-30 17:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Harrell
And this isn't the only place where these conditions exist. Lake Tahoe
is a disaster in waiting. Bark beetles killed at least one out of
every three trees back in the early 90's. Most of those trees were
never harvested and lie in wait for nature to "rebalance" the
ecosystem by fire. The similarities to the LA mountains are striking.
People regard Tahoe as "the Jewel of the Sierra" and consider it
off-limits to all logging. The concentration of homes surrounded by
tinder dry, fuel-filled forests is almost identical. The idea that "it
can't happen here" is prevalent amongst the resident "ostriches".
[...]
Post by Larry Harrell
Larry, USFS flunky
Your attitude seems to be shared by your bosses. I looked at the San
Bernardino National Forest web site and found a speech by your big boss,
Jack Blackwell, the Pacific SW Regional Forester:

"Chairman Pombo and members of the Committee, thank you for the
opportunity to talk with you about the forest health crisis we face on
the San Bernardino National Forest and the urgent need to treat our
national forests to reduce the severe threat of catastrophic wildfire. I
am also pleased that you chose Lake Arrowhead as the location for this
hearing since this community and its residents are located at the heart
of an environmental crisis. I have with me today Gene Zimmerman, Forest
Supervisor for the San Bernardino National Forest.

"As the Forest Service has testified before the House of Representatives
and the Senate, the Department of Agriculture strongly supports the
President's Healthy Forests Initiative and H.R. 1904, the Healthy Forests
Restoration Act of 2003."

[...]

"Approximately 100,000 people live within the Forest boundary. If a large
fire occurs, it is likely to threaten the lives of many residents and
forest visitors. The mountain communities have nearly 100,000 structures,
assessed by the San Bernardino County Assessors Office at approximately
$8 billion. The dead trees and vegetation mortality pose an extreme
threat to life and property, as well as damage to public utilities and
other infrastructure from fire and falling trees. The potential for
catastrophic wildfire hazard is unprecedented."

He said that just over a month ago, on September 22, and Lake Arrowhead
is now a smoldering ruin. Nothing like being a prophet in your own time.

The whole speech is at

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/news/testimony-speeches/t-jb-092203.html

Meanwhile, the preservationist industry lobbyists continue to block any
attempt at management of national forests. Maybe when people get a look
at the kind of environment the preservationists are touting, they will
show better sense and quit feeding them money. The need for long term
management of our national forests is critical.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Bud Hufstetler
2003-11-01 19:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Your attitude seems to be shared by your bosses. I looked at the San
Bernardino National Forest web site and found a speech by your big boss,
"Chairman Pombo and members of the Committee, thank you for the
opportunity to talk with you about the forest health crisis we face on
the San Bernardino National Forest and the urgent need to treat our
national forests to reduce the severe threat of catastrophic wildfire. I
am also pleased that you chose Lake Arrowhead as the location for this
hearing since this community and its residents are located at the heart
of an environmental crisis. I have with me today Gene Zimmerman, Forest
Supervisor for the San Bernardino National Forest.
"As the Forest Service has testified before the House of Representatives
and the Senate, the Department of Agriculture strongly supports the
President's Healthy Forests Initiative and H.R. 1904, the Healthy Forests
Restoration Act of 2003."
[...]
"Approximately 100,000 people live within the Forest boundary. If a large
fire occurs, it is likely to threaten the lives of many residents and
forest visitors. The mountain communities have nearly 100,000 structures,
assessed by the San Bernardino County Assessors Office at approximately
$8 billion. The dead trees and vegetation mortality pose an extreme
threat to life and property, as well as damage to public utilities and
other infrastructure from fire and falling trees. The potential for
catastrophic wildfire hazard is unprecedented."
He said that just over a month ago, on September 22, and Lake Arrowhead
is now a smoldering ruin. Nothing like being a prophet in your own time.
It's not for lack of prohets that we're in this boat, here is another
voice from the same date, this time speaking from right in the heart
of the Arrowhead area:

WRITTEN STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD



OF



DR. THOMAS M. BONNICKSEN

PROFESSOR

DEPARTMENT OF FOREST SCIENCE

TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY

and

visiting scholar and board member

The forest foundation

auburn, california









HEARING ON

FOREST HEALTH CRISIS IN THE SAN BERNARDINO NATIONAL FOREST





BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES





UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES



















LAKE ARROWHEAD RESORT

27984 hIGHWAY 189

LAKE ARROWHEAD, CALIFORNIA





Monday

SEPTEMBER 22, 2003

1:00 PM



INTRODUCTION


My name is Dr. Thomas M. Bonnicksen. I am a forest ecologist and
professor in the Department of Forest Science at Texas A&M University.
I am also a visiting scholar and board member of The Forest Foundation
in Auburn, California. I have conducted research on the history and
restoration of America’s native forests for more than 30 years. I
have written over 100 scientific and technical papers and I recently
published a book titled America’s Ancient Forests: from the Ice Age to
the Age of Discovery (Copyright January 2000, John Wiley & Sons, Inc.,
594 pages). The book documents the 18,000-year history of North
America’s native forests.



Contact information is located at the end of this written statement.





FOREST DEVASTATION AND RESTORATION


With millions of dead trees covering approximately 350,000 acres of
the San Bernardino Mountains, this forest is lost. Bark beetles
feasting on over-crowded, moisture-stressed trees will have killed
about 90 percent of the pine trees when they end their rampage. Then,
Lake Arrowhead and other communities here will look like any treeless
suburb of Los Angeles.



Among the saddest aspects of this forest being wiped out is that the
devastation was predictable and preventable. In fact, specialists
representing many interests and agencies came together in a 1994
workshop to do something about the unnaturally thick forests in the
San Bernardino Mountains. They knew that communities like Idyllwild,
Big Bear, and Lake Arrowhead were in imminent danger from wildfire.
The workshop produced a report charting a course to improve the safety
and health of the forest and surrounding communities. The
recommendations were never acted on. Now, an entire forest is lost.



Instead of acting to restore the forest and protect human lives before
the crisis reached critical mass, politicized debates and overbearing
regulations created inertia – a complete standstill during which the
forest grew so dense, devastation became inevitable.



Throughout the 1990s, extremists here advocated ‘no cut’ policies,
wanting no active management for the forest. Their battle cry was
“leave it to nature” despite indisputable evidence that the forest’s
imperiled health was entirely unnatural, brought about by a century of
absolute fire suppression and completely stifled harvesting. Now we
are stuck with a dangerous, unsustainable forest.



Unfortunately, it is too late to save the San Bernardino National
Forest. It is not, however, too late to learn from this disaster, to
restore the forest to its original grandeur, or to save the forests of
the Sierra Nevada that will undoubtedly face a similar fate if we
continue down our current path. Indeed, we can anticipate similar
catastrophes throughout our Western forests if we do not change our
ways. We have already seen the beginnings of forest devastation in
Arizona and Colorado.



In the San Bernardino Mountains, there are simply too many trees.
Drought has contributed to the crisis, but it is not the underlying
cause. Forest density is ten times what is natural – 300 or more trees
stand on an acre where 30 would be natural and sustainable.
Over-crowded trees must fight for limited nutrients and water, and in
doing so, become too weak to fight off insect attacks that healthy
trees effectively repel.



Our national forests, growing older and thicker, look nothing like
their historical predecessors, with some having reached astronomical
densities of 2,000 trees per acre where 40-50 trees per acre would be
natural. Consequently, plant and animal species that require open
conditions are disappearing, streams are drying as thickets of trees
use up water, insects and disease are reaching epidemic proportions,
and unnaturally hot wildfires have destroyed vast areas of forest.



Since 1990, we have lost 50 million acres of forest to wildfire and
suffered the destruction of over 4,800 homes. The fires of 2000 burned
8.4 million acres and destroyed 861 structures. The 2002 fire season
resulted in a loss of 6.9 million acres and 2,381 structures,
including 835 homes. These staggering losses from wildfire also
resulted in taxpayers paying $2.9 billion in firefighting costs. This
does not include vast sums spent to rehabilitate damaged forests and
replace homes.



The monster fires that have been ravaging our Western forests are of a
different breed from the fires that helped maintain forest health over
the past several hundred years. Forests that just 150 years ago were
described as being open enough to gallop a horse through without
hitting a tree are now crowded with logs and trees of all size – you
can barely walk through them, let alone ride a horse. The excessive
fuel build-up means that today, every fire has the potential to wreak
catastrophic damage.



Historically, our forests were more open because Native American and
lightning fires burned regularly. These were mostly gentle fires that
stayed on the ground as they wandered around and under trees. You
could walk over the flames without burning your legs even though they
occasionally flared up and killed small groups of trees. Such hot
spots kept forests diverse by creating openings where young trees and
shrubs could grow.



We need to return our forests to their natural state. We need to
alleviate the threat to thousands who live in danger throughout
Southern California, and ensure that residents of Northern California
and throughout the West are spared the trauma and fear that people
here live with daily.



Fortunately, we as modern foresters have the knowledge to restore our
forests. We can minimize the fire threat, accelerate forest
restoration, and protect human lives.





THE ROAD TO RECOVERY
The natural pine forest will soon be gone from these mountains. The
most important question now is, what will replace it?



There are two choices for the future of this forest, and no middle
ground for debate. First, leave the forest alone. This would placate
those who advocate ‘letting nature take its course’, though it would
not result in the historically natural mixed-conifer forest that
millions have enjoyed for centuries. Leave this forest alone, and we
will perpetuate the unnatural thick forests of oak, fir, cedar, and
brush – we will pass to future generations an unending cycle of
destruction from fire and insects.



Our second option is to restore the natural fire- and insect-resistant
forest through active management. And we must consider the entire
forest, not just small strips of land around homes or near
communities. Removing fuels around homes makes sense, but to think
that a 100-foot wall of flames ravaging a forest will lie down at a
small fuel break, or that swarms of chewing insects cannot penetrate
these flimsy barriers, is to live with a false sense of security.



The recipe for restoring San Bernardino forests is simple. Cut the
dead trees, remove or chip the slash to reduce fuels, and leave enough
snags and logs for wildlife. Then thin what’s left to ensure that
surviving trees grow quickly and to protect them from fire because
they will become old growth in the future forest.



Next, begin rebuilding the forest by planting native trees in gaps
left by beetle-killed trees. Additional gaps will have to be opened
and planted at different times and places to ensure that the restored
forest has groups of trees of different ages. This will take five or
more decades. By then seed from adjacent trees will fill new gaps and
the forest will look relatively natural since some sites will grow
trees 120 feet tall in 50 years. It will take centuries to replace the
largest trees.



This would be natural forestry not plantation forestry. That means
using nature as a guide for creating a healthy, diverse forest that is
fire, insect, disease, and drought resistant.



Restoring the forest is easy. Paying for it is not. Reducing the fire
hazard and restoring the forest could cost as much as $1,000 to $4,000
per acre. Prescribed burning can help, but it is too dangerous and
expensive to rely on, and brings with it air quality and health risks
that will prevent its widespread use.



Practical solutions for forest restoration must therefore include the
private sector. Redirecting tax money to forest restoration would
help, but there just isn’t enough to do the job. Success requires
government and the private sector to work together. That means private
companies harvest the trees needed for restoration and in exchange
they get to sell wood products. This is just common sense – why allow
insects or fire to wipe out our forests when we can use them in a way
that also restores them? Wood is a renewable resource we desperately
need.







COMPLETE RESTORATION
To fully restore our forests to health, we must fully understand the
key issues in the forest health and management debate. Perpetuating
myths in the name of advancing a particular cause does not serve the
public interest. Our national forests belong to all people, and should
serve all our needs. We need to dispel the popular misconceptions that
mislead the public and hinder the implementation of sound forest
policies. Only by understanding the facts can we make informed
decisions about our forest heritage.



Myth 1: All fires are good and forest management is bad.



This argument confuses small, naturally occurring fires with large
conflagrations, calls all of them good, and blames forest managers for
wanting to thin our incredibly thick forests and remove the fuel for
monster wildfires.



Today’s catastrophic wildfires are bad for forests. When a devastating
fire finally stops, it leaves a desolate moonscape appearance. The
habitat for forest dwelling wildlife is destroyed, small streams are
boiled dry, fish die and their habitat is smothered by silt and
debris. The fire also bakes the soil so hard water cannot get through,
so it washes away by the ton. All that is left are the blackened
corpses of animals and fallen or standing dead trees. Often there are
too few live trees left to even reseed the burn and the area soon
becomes covered with a thick layer of brush that prevents a new forest
from becoming established for many years.



Historically, natural fires burned a far different kind of forest than
the uniformly thick, overpopulated forests we have today. Forests of
the past were resistant to monster fires, with clearings and patches
of open forest that acted as mini-fuelbreaks for fires that were far
smaller and far less hot. These light fires naturally cleared away
debris, dead trees and other potentially dangerous fuels.



Fires can’t burn that way in the forest of today. They bite into a
superabundance of fuel, burn super-hot, destroy wildlife and
watersheds, and leave a desolate landscape scarred by erosion and
pitted with craters. This is why forest management, which involves
thinning in order to make our forests more like they used be —
naturally resistant to fire — is so desperately needed.





Myth 2: Wildfires and massive insect infestations are a natural way
for forests to thin and rejuvenate themselves.



On the contrary, "no-cut" policies and total fire suppression have
created the overcrowded forest conditions that enable fires to spread
over vast areas that never burned that way in their known history.
The resulting devastation is not natural. It is human-caused. We
must accept responsibility for the crisis we created and correct the
problem.





Myth 3: If management is unavoidable, then deliberately set fires, or
prescribed fires, are the best way to solve today's wildfire crisis.



It is naive to believe we can have gentle fires in today’s thick
forests. Prescribed fire is ineffective and unsafe in the forests of
today. It is ineffective because any fire that is hot enough to kill
trees over three inches in diameter, which is too small to eliminate
most fire hazards, has a high probability of becoming uncontrollable.
Even carefully planned fires are unsafe, as the 2000 Los Alamos fire
amply demonstrated.



Not only that, there are very limited opportunities to burn. All the
factors, such as fuel moisture, temperature, wind, existence of
defensible perimeters, and available personnel, must be at levels that
make it relatively safe to conduct a prescribed burn. This happens so
rarely that it would be impossible to burn enough acreage each year to
significantly reduce the fire hazard. Plus, prescribed burns
inherently introduce air quality and health risk concerns.





Myth 4: Thinning narrow strips of forest around communities, or
fuelbreaks, is more than adequate as a defense against wildfire.



Anyone who thinks roaring wildfires can’t penetrate these flimsy
barriers could not be more mistaken. Fires often jump over railroad
tracks and even divided highways.



Fuelbreaks are impractical because forest communities are spread out,
with homes and businesses scattered over huge areas. It would be
virtually impossible to create an effective thinned ‘zone’ to
encompass an area so large.



In addition, fuelbreaks only work if firefighters are on the scene to
attack the fire when it enters the area. Otherwise, it drops to the
ground, and moves along the forest floor even faster than in a thick
forest. Furthermore, there is always the danger of firefighters being
trapped in a fuelbreak during a monster fire.



Catastrophic fires roaring through hundreds of square miles of
unthinned, overgrown forest simply do not respect a narrow fuelbreak.
Frequently, firebrands – burning debris – are launched up to a mile in
advance of the edge of a wildfire, and can destroy homes and
communities no matter how much cleared space surrounds them. When
catapulted embers land on roofs, destruction is usually unavoidable.



Fuelbreaks are a necessary part of a comprehensive community
protection program, not a cure-all solution in and of themselves.







Myth 5: Removing dead trees killed by wind, insects, or fire will not
reduce the fire hazard.



Experience and logic say this is false. Do logs burn in a fireplace?
If dead trees are not removed, they fall into jackstraw piles
intermingled with heavy brush and small trees. These fuels become
bone dry by late summer, earlier during a drought. Any fire that
reaches these mammoth piles of dry fuel can unleash the full fury of
nature’s violence.



Acting quickly to rehabilitate a wind or insect-ravaged forest, or a
burned forest, is one of the surest ways to prevent wildfires or
dampen their tendency to spread.





Myth 6: We should use taxpayer money to solve the wildfire crisis
rather than involve private enterprise.



The private sector must be involved.



A minimum of 73 million acres of forest needs immediate thinning and
restoration. Another 120 million also need treatment. Subsequent
maintenance treatments must be done on a 15-year cycle. The total cost
for initial treatment would be $60 billion, or about $4 billion per
year for 15 years. Then it would cost about $31 billion for each of
the following 15-year maintenance cycles.


This is far more money than the taxpayers will bear. But if private
companies could harvest and thin only the trees required to restore
and sustain a healthy, fire-resistant forest, it could be done. In
exchange, companies sell the wood, and public expenditures are
minimized.



Unfortunately, there aren’t any shortcuts. Human intervention has
created forests that are dense, overgrown tinderboxes where unnatural
monster fires are inevitable. This means we must manage the forest to
prevent fires in the first place. We have to restore our forests to
their natural, historical fire resistance. Thinning and restoring the
entire forest is the only way to safeguard our natural heritage, make
our communities safe, and protect our critical water sources.







CONTACT


Thomas M. Bonnicksen, Ph.D., Professor, Department of Forest Science,
Texas A&M University, and Visiting Scholar and Board Member, The
Forest Foundation, 853 Lincoln Way, Suite 208, Auburn, California,
95603. Telephone (530) 823-2363, cell phone (713) 854-2631, E-mail:
***@earthlink.net.
<end>

Our forest is toast now, thanks to the idiots. All we can hope is that
this lesson is taken to heart and people begin to listen to, and
follow the advice of people who actually have the health of the
forests at heart rather than some loony agenda. It's probably too late
for the SBNF, but I urge all of you to learn from this example and do
what you can to prevent a repeat in your local forests.

Bud
Blue Goose H2o Transport
2003-11-05 19:10:00 UTC
Permalink
So. Ca. is not the only area of concern. Those who live in the Lake
Tahoe Basin are in for a big surprise if they don't address their forest
conditions. The buildup of down and dead fuels and cramped tree growth
marks this area for disaster. Too many people have built in the
forested area with seemingly no concern for the wildfire potential that
exists. Enviromentalists have all but killed the logging industry.
Without the forest management that logging has provided, the potential
for disaster looms. Just look at what has happened in Colorado, Arizona,
New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, California, Idaho, Montana and several
other states. "Enviros", just shut up about "clear cutting", I'm talking
about "forest management". Take a lesson from the farming industry and
treat our forests as a crop that needs to be nurtured. I have seen the
neglected forest lands first hand and can not believe the stand that
"Enviros" take. (The Spotted Owl is dying off in spite of your whining,
and it's not from logging.) These people sit in an office and try to
dictate their policies to the rest of us. Get out and take a look for
yourself !!! Millions of acres are burned each year. Fortunately, not
many lives have been lost (one is too many), but look at the loss in
homes, timber, other resourses, and yes, money. My family has been
involved in the logging industry for three generations. I currently have
a water tender on contract with the BLM for fire service.
Tallgrass
2003-11-08 03:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Caldwell
Well, it looks like we finally got our voter bloc for controlling fuel
loads. After years of trying to convince urban voters of the dangers of
untended fuel buildup, they are finally getting a first hand introduction
to wildfire. It's not something the fire department can put out. When
the wind blows and the humidity is low, nothing can stand in front of a
wildfire. The only way to manage wildfire is in advance, by removing
fuels and maintaining fire breaks.
What is happening in SoCal is a terrible tragedy, but I hope it opens
some eyes. After half a million acres burned in the Biscuit Fire last
year, people actually spouted nonsense about how "natural" and
"beneficial" the process was. I wonder if they are going to try to tell
Californians how "natural" and "beneficial" those fires are.
Welcome to the real world, urbanoids. Wake up and smell the smoke.
Nothing has changed since Yellowstone burned. I don't see anything
changing anytime soon, either.

Linda H.
Larry Caldwell
2003-11-09 23:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tallgrass
Nothing has changed since Yellowstone burned. I don't see anything
changing anytime soon, either.
National parks like Yellowstone are a different issue. They are
protected from logging and hunting, but on the other hand they support
commercial tourist operations that would not be allowed in national
forests.

I did find Jena's travel photos of Yellowstone interesting. There was
one shot of her daughter with a burn in the background. Other than some
underbrush, there has been no recovery of the forest in almost 20 years.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
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